Tuesday, May 11, 2004
an exchange among family members
Dear Friends:
This prisoner abuse issue is hot. It gives Teddy Kennedy and his ilk a chance to grandstand, and it riles the "Arab Street" Americans are supposed to recoil in shame and prostrate themselves at the feet of Kofi Annan and ask forgiveness.
Let's all agree at once that mistreating civil prisoners is wrong. However, after September 11th, we started to discuss that terrorist are in a separate category and that torture should be considered. No less than Alan Dershowitz had a piece in the New York Times Magazine section to that effect. The people in Iraq who place road bombs or who attack our troops with mortars or rocket grenades, would not be considered civil prisoners. The techniques of sleep deprivation,humiliation, and intimidation are legitimate techniques of interrogation of hostel prisoners. It's an embarrassment that the dirty secret is out and we must make a pretense of being "Shocked, Shocked" at such goings on.
On the other hand, in 1948 when I was in Korea there was an uprising on the island of Cheju Do off the southern coast. The press blew it up as a communist attempt at a takeover. Three destroyers and a battalion of Marines were required to put it down. After the dust settled the truth came out. The island was being administered by a platoon of young men, lead by a junior officer. They took advantage of their position with respect to the women and the distribution of rations. The elders of Cheju Do rebelled against this injustice.
It's not the policy of the United States to abuse Civil Prisoners. At times young people get carried away with themselves. If this is the case, let's correct the situation and move on. The Democrats have an agenda as do the people who feed the news to the "Arab Streets" This should not be a surprise; but on the other hand it's no excuse for doing cartwheels. And, one should keep in mind that it's not just the Arab Streets that can get angry we Americans can get angry too at the hypocrisy of those "Streets" who don't condemn terrorist and dance in the streets at American dead.
Chet
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Chet,
I don't think this should be put in terms of democrats or republicans. I've tried to understand the reports from the standpoint of a former soldier who was trained-over and over-about the treatment of prisoners and the duty of all soldiers to refuse an illegal order.
As more news comes in I think it is pretty clear that this was not the action of a few ill-trained kids in uniform but the direct result taking our policies on the treatment of prisoners to their logical conclusions.
The Army had a detailed investigative report on abuse of prisoners from a major general for months, and it did little or nothing. I think that indicates that "hear no evil, see no evil" was the byword down the chain of command. More to the point, officers who wanted to "get along" had better "go along" with the program.
There is no accounting for those detained in Cuba, Iraq or Afghanistan. They have already lost their identity. Since we've no idea just who or how many people are incarcerated, it is not too much of a stretch to not care about the "how" of their imprisonment. They are nameless, powerless people who are confined indefinitely under a "system" that is entirely outside any legal framework, save that which is enforced by our military.
I'm sure, now that pictures have been released, that some of the abuses will be corrected. The corrections will be a day late and lots of dollars short. More ominously, the distinctions between ourselves and other less democratic societies, which seem obvious to us, are now much less so in the eyes of millions. We could only "win" in Iraq with better ideas that are put into practice. While we still espouse the ideas, their practical employment is, as is all too clear, just lip service.
Take care,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Prisoner Abuse
It's ironic that we can excuse these acts as just the work of some over-zealous troops but when American prisoners are shown on TV we become highly indignant. The US is the acknowledged leader of the free world and the only real superpower. I think we have a responsibility to set an example an uphold the rules as established by the Geneva convention. If we don't then whoa to our soldiers if they are captured by the enemy. The issue is larger than the pictures and what was done at this one prison. It calls into question all the other acts perpetrated by this administration in violation of human rights. The administration has politely ignored all laws by placing most of the prisoners held in Cuba in a limbo status of neither being a prisoner of war or subject to civil law.
----
Dear Friends:
This prisoner abuse issue is hot. It gives Teddy Kennedy and his ilk a chance to grandstand, and it riles the "Arab Street" Americans are supposed to recoil in shame and prostrate themselves at the feet of Kofi Annan and ask forgiveness.
Let's all agree at once that mistreating civil prisoners is wrong. However, after September 11th, we started to discuss that terrorist are in a separate category and that torture should be considered. No less than Alan Dershowitz had a piece in the New York Times Magazine section to that effect. The people in Iraq who place road bombs or who attack our troops with mortars or rocket grenades, would not be considered civil prisoners. The techniques of sleep deprivation,humiliation, and intimidation are legitimate techniques of interrogation of hostel prisoners. It's an embarrassment that the dirty secret is out and we must make a pretense of being "Shocked, Shocked" at such goings on.
On the other hand, in 1948 when I was in Korea there was an uprising on the island of Cheju Do off the southern coast. The press blew it up as a communist attempt at a takeover. Three destroyers and a battalion of Marines were required to put it down. After the dust settled the truth came out. The island was being administered by a platoon of young men, lead by a junior officer. They took advantage of their position with respect to the women and the distribution of rations. The elders of Cheju Do rebelled against this injustice.
It's not the policy of the United States to abuse Civil Prisoners. At times young people get carried away with themselves. If this is the case, let's correct the situation and move on. The Democrats have an agenda as do the people who feed the news to the "Arab Streets" This should not be a surprise; but on the other hand it's no excuse for doing cartwheels. And, one should keep in mind that it's not just the Arab Streets that can get angry we Americans can get angry too at the hypocrisy of those "Streets" who don't condemn terrorist and dance in the streets at American dead.
Chet
--------------
Chet,
I don't think this should be put in terms of democrats or republicans. I've tried to understand the reports from the standpoint of a former soldier who was trained-over and over-about the treatment of prisoners and the duty of all soldiers to refuse an illegal order.
As more news comes in I think it is pretty clear that this was not the action of a few ill-trained kids in uniform but the direct result taking our policies on the treatment of prisoners to their logical conclusions.
The Army had a detailed investigative report on abuse of prisoners from a major general for months, and it did little or nothing. I think that indicates that "hear no evil, see no evil" was the byword down the chain of command. More to the point, officers who wanted to "get along" had better "go along" with the program.
There is no accounting for those detained in Cuba, Iraq or Afghanistan. They have already lost their identity. Since we've no idea just who or how many people are incarcerated, it is not too much of a stretch to not care about the "how" of their imprisonment. They are nameless, powerless people who are confined indefinitely under a "system" that is entirely outside any legal framework, save that which is enforced by our military.
I'm sure, now that pictures have been released, that some of the abuses will be corrected. The corrections will be a day late and lots of dollars short. More ominously, the distinctions between ourselves and other less democratic societies, which seem obvious to us, are now much less so in the eyes of millions. We could only "win" in Iraq with better ideas that are put into practice. While we still espouse the ideas, their practical employment is, as is all too clear, just lip service.
Take care,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Prisoner Abuse
It's ironic that we can excuse these acts as just the work of some over-zealous troops but when American prisoners are shown on TV we become highly indignant. The US is the acknowledged leader of the free world and the only real superpower. I think we have a responsibility to set an example an uphold the rules as established by the Geneva convention. If we don't then whoa to our soldiers if they are captured by the enemy. The issue is larger than the pictures and what was done at this one prison. It calls into question all the other acts perpetrated by this administration in violation of human rights. The administration has politely ignored all laws by placing most of the prisoners held in Cuba in a limbo status of neither being a prisoner of war or subject to civil law.
----
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